Monday, February 06, 2006

Comments on my comments on a Pro-Abortion blog site

I checked out the comments I posted here on 1/26, and here are
the string of comments that came back. I like "Roseanne, you rock."
I don't like some of the other comments!

8
Elvira Black
URL
January 27, 2006
12:50 AM
Roseanne:

You say:
"The posts that scoff about the futility of expecting people not to go to bed outside of marriage are denying the reality that for ages it was understood in the majority of cultures that sleeping with another person is reserved for marriage(except for the occasional disfunctional cultures dug up by anthropologists looking for justifications for their own sexual immorality)"

I am not an expert on this by any means, but I am certain that even in cultures which officially condoned monogamy and marriage, people still did engage in extramarital sex. In some ages and in some cultures, it was simply done more circumspectly. And yes, in my parent's generation the divorce rate was much lower. But extramarital and premarital sex did take place.

I am actually with you on a lot of what you say. My personal experience was that in college I had a series of short term relationships and felt cheapened and cheated ultimately because the men did not feel as I did about commitment. But I considered it one of the lessons of growing up, and before graduation I met a man I would stay with for twenty years, though we never married or had children.

And yes, I do think that the sexual revolution was in some ways a disservice to women. I do think that sex for sex's sake can lead to heartbreak and alienation and despair for some--and that women as a rule are more vulnerable to this.

However, I still think it is a woman's choice. If she chooses to sleep with a guy on the first date, or the tenth date, or wait until marriage, that is her choice. She will, to use a tired cliche, make her own bed and have to sleep in it.

But again, there are women who wait til marriage, have children, a beautiful home, and at the age of 30 or 40 or 50 discover that their beloved husband has been having an affair and wants a divorce. It is simply a sad fact that people do not always mate for life. Personally, I am a romantic and think it very sad when children have to endure the upheaval of divorce. But this is something that noone here has addressed as yet.

Those commenters here who are young and idealistic have never experienced what a long term relationship is. They idealize sex as a spiritual bond, and in the first flush of young passion this is certainly the case. But for many couples, this romantic phase soon passes, and some look for that thrill elsewhere. In fact, millions do. I'm not saying this is "right"--just a fact of life and relationships, at least in our contemporary society.

There are and have been some societies also where a man may have multiple wives, or harems, or mistresses and this is considered the norm. Sad? Unfair? Perhaps--but it is reality, even if it is not always pretty.

Nevertheless, your points are well taken. Young women in particular often go through agony trying to please a man sexually only to be taken advantage of and dumped unceremoniously. However, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves how they will deal with this dilemma. They can choose to wait for marriage if they feel that is best for them. Again, I think this is admirable--just not the way for everyone.

#419
Elvira Black
URL
January 27, 2006
12:59 AM
KYS:
Thanks--who knew? (lol).
I value your comments here as the eloquent voice of reason.

T.A. Dodger:
Well put.

JR:
Touche!

Roseanne:
I guess you and I were writing our comments at the same time, and your second one came out before my first one did--or something (lol). I'll read your second one and probably add my two cents again.

#420
Elvira Black
URL
January 27, 2006
01:08 AM
Roseanne:

I understand why you believe what you do, but it is not illegal to have sex outside of marriage, and you are not the sex police.

I do not believe that people must have children or even marry if they choose not to. As I said, I never wanted children and had a committed 20 year relationship, with no cheating on either side, through good times and bad. Many people go through three marriages and multiple children in that time. A piece of paper does not a lifetime commitment make, and people break their marriage vows every day.

The implications of what you say are frankly a bit alarming to me. Would you outlaw extramarital sex? That may be acceptable in some other cultures--but not in ours, and I thank heaven for that.

Live your life as you see fit--enjoy--even advocate for what you believe in. But this is not a fascist dictatorship, and you have no right to figuratively stand by my bedside and dictate who and when and why and with whom I choose to have sex. You may not like it, but that's just the way it is.

#421
Mark
January 27, 2006
01:33 PM
Roseanne, you rock. I appreciate you eloquence and your ability to stay on point, I tend to tangent. I just hope you feel good knowing that you did your best and placed the truth out there in front of them in a very plain and accessible fashion. Choice is an interesting thing, it seems as though these days people would rather allow the possibility of making the wrong choice over and over instead of ensuring themselves the chance to make the right choice every time. Freedom means making decisions right? (small tangent here for those using the rights clause of the constitution when the founders wrote "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" life means LITERALLY, your life, meaning they cant kill you *coughbabiescough*, liberty means PHYSICAL freedom, meaning they cant take away your ability to move freely without just cause and the pursuit of happiness is NOT a catchall.) When people choose something they are trying to get to what they think is good. But we know man is fallible and thats why sometimes when we choose something we think is good it turns out not to be. However, if we can identify the all-good i.e. God, then since He is always good and nothing can ever be seen as better than Him then we still have the ability to make a choice but since we are going to go with what we identify as the greatest good then we are always going to choose God, so we really are in a sense both not-free and totally-free at the same time. take a breath.

#422
Katie
January 27, 2006
04:38 PM
I LOVE YOU! I agree with you enough said!

#423
Elvira Black
URL
January 27, 2006
09:36 PM
Roseanne said:
"In the same way, by nature intercourse is designed for a purpose and harm comes when the purpose is denied. There are laws about how to live our sexual lives that are for our own good. Sure I want to tell you how to live your life, because it is for your health and happiness. But if you want to keep driving 85 miles an hour without a seat belt four sheets to the wind, don't say I didn't warn you. And if I can, I will try to get your license taken away before you kill yourself or someone else."

Where are you writing from, Roseanne? I assumed it was from the US, but maybe it's from--say--Saudi Arabia?

Mark said:
"I just hope you feel good knowing that you did your best and placed the truth out there in front of them in a very plain and accessible fashion."

Who's this "them," Mark? The heathens you must convert the way the Christian soldiers did during the Inquisition? Is that what you mean about placing the truth in front of "them?"

The truth, straight up, for real? You two scare the living shit outta me.

#424
KYS
January 27, 2006
10:10 PM
"There are laws about how to live our sexual lives that are for our own good. "

Can you define these laws, please?

#425
Bennett
January 27, 2006
10:49 PM
If I might cut to the chase about Roseanne's "time honored" and "traditional values throughout history" bit.

You ignore the reality that right up to 100 years ago, marriages happened between teenagers, and that you were an "old maid" if you were single and childless at 20.

We now ask our kids to put off for five to ten years, what used to take place at ~16. While subjecting them to ever increasing amounts of sexual stimulation.

We are actually in complete and insane violation of "time honored".

Please explain how we should deal with this perversion of traditional values?

#426
Elvira Black
URL
January 28, 2006
11:37 AM
Bennett and KYS:

To quote Katie (comment 422 above):

"I LOVE YOU! I agree with you enough said!"

Heh heh....


#427
Mark
January 28, 2006
12:07 PM
Elvira, what country do you live in? You seem so outraged by what Roseanne said about wanting to prevent people from harming others by having laws in place that punish people making bad choices. To this you responded that she must be living in Saudi Arabia, which seemed strange to me because here in the US we have hundreds of laws which tell you which choices you can and cant make. Why is it that you think only the middle east has a state where the people are told what they can and cannot do.

As far as the "them" go, I was talking about everyone on this forum in the pro-choice camp, it would have taken too long to list them all and I didnt want to say heathens because some of those people are actually Christian. BTW the Inquisition, which is what the world has come to use as a reference point any time someone stands up for their religious beliefs, has been totally misrepresented in the common mindset. During the Inquisition, only those who were baptized members of the Catholic church were brought in, and they were only brought in if they were actively teaching heresy. The numbers have been blown totally out of proportion as well, during the entirety of the Inquisition only a few hundred, less than five hundred people were actually executed. Those that were executed were given YEARS to come around and to stop teaching in opposition to the Church. They were only executed because it is better to protect the many from being led into sin by eliminating one. But they were given every opportunity to recant. I love how pissed off this is going to make you. You dont scare me....you make me sad.

#428
Mark
January 28, 2006
12:16 PM
Why dont people ever reference the Muslims who swept across northern africa and even pushed east and into Europe converting truely by the sword who killed literally hundreds of thousands of people. I'm tired of people only identifying Catholics as being the only religion to use execution to protect the integrity of their beliefs. However, while in Catholicism it was a sad period of religious corruption, in the Muslim religion it is one of the central tenets of their religon.

#429
Elvira Black
URL
January 28, 2006
01:55 PM
Mark:

Why is it that 20-something virgins (HOT or not) and priests (celibate or not) think they know enough about the sex act and what it entails to tell the rest of the world how, why, when and if to engage in it?

" I didnt want to say heathens because some of those people are actually Christian."

AHA! Gotcha! Well, I'm a heathen then I guess--being a Jew and all. Do you wanna see my horns too?

"Why dont people ever reference the Muslims..."

Who do you think I was referring to when I mentioned Saudi Arabia?

"You seem so outraged by what Roseanne said about wanting to prevent people from harming others by having laws in place that punish people making bad choices."

So sex is a "crime" for which people must be "punished" for their "bad choices"--by your rules at least? Ever hear of separation of church and state? If you're talking abortion , that's at least debatable--if Roe v. Wade is overturned then we're talking actual law.

I'd like to know specifically what kind of punishment you have in mind and for what offenses--having sex outside of wedlock? If so, how would you propose to punish these people? Can you spell fascism?

"BTW the Inquisition, which is what the world has come to use as a reference point any time someone stands up for their religious beliefs, has been totally misrepresented in the common mindset. During the Inquisition, only those who were baptized members of the Catholic church were brought in, and they were only brought in if they were actively teaching heresy."

Methinks you are rewriting history, and even if you're not, there's plenty of other examples of religious terrorism by Christians. The Crusades, the pogroms in Eastern Europe, etc etc. etc etc etc........

As a Jew, I do not tell others how to worship. However, I am beset by "Christians" of all stripes who want to tell me that they know the light and the way. Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews for Jesus, people banging on my boyfriend's door as if the apartment is on fire to "talk about the bible" with me, and on and on and on. It's a total, total turnoff, but we do have free speech in this country, thank goodness. But make no mistake: this is not a "Christian" country, despite the fact that the majority of its citizens may be Christian (and there are myriad different branches, most of whom do not see eye to eye on all matters of faith). Exactly what would you propose be done with a Jewgirl heathen such as me?

"You dont scare me....you make me sad."

You not only scare me and make me sad, but you make me mad as hell to boot.

As far as rules, I like the Golden Rule, myself. Covers a lot of ground.

Oh Ruvy in Jerusalem, where are you when I need you?

#430
Elvira Black
URL
January 28, 2006
01:58 PM
Mark:

Do you have any idea how maniacal you sound when you try to get all "medieval" on my Jewish ass?

#431
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 28, 2006
05:38 PM
Elvira, I may disappoint you, just a bit.

Roseanne Sullivan has taken up many of my cudgels - and Bennett has given a pointed response to them. I'll leave it there.

Mark is right about the Inquisition. Baptized Catholics were brought before it to be purified - and to be tortured to rat on others who were not practicing according to the politically or religiously corrrect mantras of the day in Spain, Italy, Mexico, Brasil, and everywhere else that the Catholic church had official status.

What Mark omits is that the people brought before the Inquisition were Jews who were forcibly baptized. Slick, eh? Then there are all those expuslions by Christian rulers of Jews after squeezing every last mark or louis d'or out of them. Mark doesn't mention that, though you can bet that the boys with the cassocks were pressuring the princes and kings to do the expelling and supplying them with data so as to make the exulsions as painful and as hurtful as possible.

The expulsions of Jews from England, Spain and France all were timed to take place on one day - Tish'รก b'Av, the day the Temple had been destroyed in Jerusalem. Do you think this was coincidental? I have some beautiful acres of Arizona seacoast to sell you if you do.

By contrast, the Moslems were much less brutal and genocidal - for a long time, anyway. But in the end, when their own empires were swallowing their own vomit, they were as bad as the Christians.

Having lived with Christians hustling their religions down everybody's throat and having learned the assorted ways of giving all these fools the middle finger they deserved, I fully understand how you feel.

But Elvira, you need to realize that we Jews have our own task - to teach the Seven Commandments of Noah. And we've been slacking off on the job for two millennia.

Christianity and Islam in particular, have mostly been interim solutions until we Jews get our own act together to do what OUR job is.

Something for you to ponder.

#432
Mark
January 28, 2006
09:07 PM
When did we stop talking about abortion? thats why ive been saying you shouldnt kill people all this time. i dont care if you have sex, get an STD, die and rot in hell. Sorry to disappoint.

#433
KYS
January 28, 2006
09:39 PM
Mark,

On another thread you seem to care deeply about "genital herpes, gonorrhea, AIDS, prostitution, pedophilia, pornography, etc."

I submit that education is the best weapon against unwanted pregnancy and everything else you've mentioned. NOT an abstinence-only agenda.




#434
Elvira Black
URL
January 29, 2006
02:56 AM
Ruvy:

Thank you! I can wholeheartedly agree with nearly all that you said. As far as the mention of teaching the Seven Commandments of Noah--I recall reading a piece you wrote which talked about this, but I need to re-read and/or get more info.

Offhand, it sounded like it might be prosteletyzing to other faiths, which as I said rubs me the wrong way. The only public instances I've ever encountered of Jews trying to actively bring others to the fold is when they approach people around Purim, ask if they're Jewish, and invite them into their vans to pray. But that's just reaching out to their own who have, in their eyes at least, fallen astray.

Thanks again, Ruvy!

#435
Elvira Black
URL
January 29, 2006
03:14 AM
KYS:
Somehow it doesn't exactly shock me to learn that Mark has visited other forums spreading his heartfelt message of tolerance and goodwill far and wide. Good one.

Mark:
"When did we stop talking about abortion? thats why ive been saying you shouldnt kill people all this time."

You have GOT to be kidding. Your own words in the earlier comments you've left--and your frenzied cheerleading of Roseanne and her harsh yet ill defined brand of religious frontier justice--remain here, alive and well, to mock you.

"i dont care if you have sex, get an STD, die and rot in hell. Sorry to disappoint."

Of course you don't care, now that you know I'm Jewish. After all, I'm doomed to rot in hell anyway, aren't I now?

Disappoint? Sicken and disgust is more like it.

Buh bye now. Don't let the comment box hit you in the ass on the way off my post--which is entitled, BTW, "Pro-life or anti-sex?" and not "pro-life or pro-choice?" for good reason.


#436
KYS
January 29, 2006
03:21 AM
Elvira,

LOL! Silly commenters, they think they won't be seen trying to change their spots on other threads!



#437
Mark
January 30, 2006
04:45 PM
Yeah, KYS you need to read words more carefully and sound them out. take your time. c'mon, you can do this. I never said anything about STDs in that other thread, it was some guy named Howard. H-O-W-A-R-D. I know both our names have an A and an R right next to each other, but this is why sight reading is such a dangerous thing for our society to encourage. Hooked on Phonics worked for me.

#438
KYS
January 30, 2006
08:23 PM
Mark,

You are absolutely right, and I owe you an apology! Thanks for the correction.

However, feel free to stuff the sarcasm.

;)


#439
Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
URL
February 5, 2006
03:25 PM
Mark, in 353 you said it PERFECTLY!!!

I want to add though, that the reason we call ourselves "Pro-Life" is because we believe that abortion is murder, and murder is wrong. I know that that sounds simple to some and to some it sounds confusing. The reason is because we continue to try and make arguments on how abortion is murder, but those people who are not Christians don't truly see the reason why. I will clearly say that without Christ, you will not see the light and the truth. THIS is because otherwise someone could make the argument that Murder is okay. There has will clearly one-day be a large liberal group of people that are anti-christian supporters*(maybe they already exist) and believe that murder and rape and lying and sex outside of marriage is okay. BUT that is where they will go wrong. The reason abortion was illegal at one time is because Christ was in America and Was America. Now we want to take "God" out of our schools, continue to keep him out of Government policy and look where we are going. I think it is possible for someone to say they don't believe in abortion and be a non-christian, but I don't believe they would have any valid whole-hearted argument to back it up if they do not have Christ in their heart.

#440
Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
URL
February 5, 2006
03:38 PM
Mark AGAIN, Wonderful argument and perfectly stated in #362. I enjoy that fact that your statements are so true and factual. They further encourage my quest to have abortion illegalized as do many other good Christians. I just wanted to say again to all those people who "think" that Pro-lifers are against any choice in the personal matters. The choice is and ALWAYS will be yours in everything you do in life. We are not against the right to choose, we are just against the legal option that doing so has no repercussions. As stated by Mark before, you can kill somoene if you choose to do so, but you will go to jail, and possibly even have a death sentence. That's what we are advocating; putting the law in its place.

#441
Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
URL
February 5, 2006
03:45 PM
Redtard, #363 is a very good argument again showing how the government already puts the man who took part in creating that baby in his place and makes him take responsibility for his actions. NOW we need to do the same for the women who decide to have sex outside of marriage and tell her it is illegal to have an abortion, so the only reasonable option is to have the child and deal with her actions appropriately by upbringing her child or by putting her baby up for adoption if she or the father or one of her family members cannot properly take care of the baby.

#442
KYS
February 5, 2006
09:03 PM
Scott,

The facts of conception stand within and without the teachings of the bible. So, what is your view of contriception?
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